Casino cheating at Pai-Gow poker?

[n***@mail.com]

I was analyzing some of the table games at Mohegan Sun casino the other
day.

In the Pai-Gow table with the dominoes, they shake a cup of dice to
determine who gets dealt first.

In the Pai-Gow poker table (with cards), they use an electronic device
inside the table. This device selects a number AFTER the cards are
placed in an electronic sorting and dealing device also attached to the
table. There is certainly enough time for 52 cards to be scanned and
calculated before the number is selected, so my concern is that the
number is selected to (occasionally) give the dealer the best hand.

The problem is that there is no way to be 100% certain this is not
happening. There could have been - if the casino used the dice, if the
table selected the starting order BEFORE placing the cards in the
electric sorter, etc. But they don't.

There are entire books written about the known and unknown methods
casinos use to get your money, starting the moment you walk in. I tnink
these methods extend to the games, which is why I don't play slots, the
"wheel" games like roulette or the vertical wheel, video poker, pai-gow
poker, etc.

When you see a magician 'levitate' someone on a table, you ask 'how
does he do that?'. The answer, which people may or may not realize, is
that the table is a complex device costing nearly a million dollars. In
casinos, no one is asking 'how do they do that', but there is a very
real possibility that their machines are also complex devices that are
not as random as one may assume.

Are there any lists of guaranteed random games? Am I being overly
cautious?

[Rich Shipley]

Post by n***@mail.com
In the Pai-Gow poker table (with cards), they use an electronic device
inside the table. This device selects a number AFTER the cards are
placed in an electronic sorting and dealing device also attached to the
table. There is certainly enough time for 52 cards to be scanned and
calculated before the number is selected, so my concern is that the
number is selected to (occasionally) give the dealer the best hand.

That shuffling device can't do that.

Post by n***@mail.com
When you see a magician 'levitate' someone on a table, you ask 'how
does he do that?'. The answer, which people may or may not realize, is
that the table is a complex device costing nearly a million dollars.

It levitates things by what method? Money?

Post by n***@mail.com
Are there any lists of guaranteed random games? Am I being overly
cautious?

You are borderline wacko.

Rich

[Iceman]

"Are there any lists of guaranteed random games? Am I being overly
cautious?"

You are being overly cautious. US casinos are very heavily regulated.
They already have a large advantage in games like roulette and Pai Gow
Poker - why would they cheat you for a few percentage points and risk
getting sent to prison and getting their whole casino shut down? There
is no conceivable way to scan 52 cards in a fraction of a second
without anyone noticing and fix the deal to rig the hand, period. The
house advantage is enough for the casino to make huge profits off of
virtually any table game.

Where you have to worry about casino cheating is on cruise ships or in
other countries, where the regulation is far less strict and where they
don't depend on repeat business.

If a roulette or crap table wasn't random, players could take advantage
of its non-randomness. So casinos have every reason to make those
games as random as possible - you will never find a biased roulette
wheel except in the most decrepit third world casinos.

Video poker and slots can be programmed to have lousy returns. That's
not cheating, it's just the way those games work. You can tell from
the paytable exactly what a video poker machine returns, so there's no
reason to play a poorly-paying machine.

Blackjack is an easy game for a dishonest casino to cheat in - they
just remove high cards from the deck. Removing 16 ten-value cards from
an eight deck shoe would be almost unnoticeable, but would make the
game unbeatable even by the best card counters, would make a basic
strategy player a 2-3% underdog, and would make the average player
about a 5% underdog instead of a 2-3% underdog. I know someone who is
a serious high stakes blackjack player, and she refuses to play on
cruise ships.

[n***@mail.com]

Post by Iceman
There
is no conceivable way to scan 52 cards in a fraction of a second
without anyone noticing and fix the deal to rig the hand, period.

The card-sorting machine is a large device attached to the table. The
cards go in one end, out the other about a foot away. Anyone in the
manufacturing industry knows you can take one deck of cards, and then
card by card, sort the entire deck a foot away. This means each card is
exposed for a fraction of a second. Anyone in the optics industry knows
there are cameras that can scan down to well under a millionth of a
second. And anyone with a computer knows what a computer can do with
those 52 cards, and how fast it can do it. Certainly enough time to
determine "position 3 is the winning hand".

So like I said, it can be done. There are hundreds if not thousands of
manufacturers and individuals here and abroad who can build these items
one less than 1% of a casinos DAILY profit.

Post by Iceman
If a roulette or crap table wasn't random, players could take advantage
of its non-randomness. So casinos have every reason to make those
games as random as possible - you will never find a biased roulette
wheel except in the most decrepit third world casinos.

Again anyone with a basic understanding of electro-magnetism knows you
could conceivably get the ball to land (or to NOT land) where you want
it, at any given spin. Clearly the casinos would not select numbers
that would advantage the player because this would be done after the
betting. I am not saying every spin or every hand. Devices like this
are common in the illusion (magic) industry, built to fool people,
except in that industry the audience is aware of it. Thats why guys
like Penn Jillette or Ricky Jay don't gamble at casinos.

Post by Iceman
Blackjack is an easy game for a dishonest casino to cheat in - they
just remove high cards from the deck. Removing 16 ten-value cards from
an eight deck shoe would be almost unnoticeable, but would make the
game unbeatable even by the best card counters, would make a basic
strategy player a 2-3% underdog, and would make the average player
about a 5% underdog instead of a 2-3% underdog. I know someone who is
a serious high stakes blackjack player, and she refuses to play on
cruise ships.

Exactly, they can do the same thing in the in the game War to give the
house an advantage over the players, but it would not give an advantage
over any individual player.

[Iceman]

If you think casinos cheat their players, then don't go to them. It's
as simple as that. I don't see any evidence that Las Vegas or Atlantic
City casinos cheat their players, but if you think they do then you
should just avoid them.

Or, if you think that the casino rigs the games to screw players, bet
in such a way that your interests align with the house. If everyone
else in a crap game is betting on pass, you bet don't pass. If most of
the money in roulette is on red or red numbers, bet black. If you play
baccarat, always take the side with less money on it. In all of those
cases, the house would WANT you to win, since they would win more
overall if you win and the players who are betting most of the money
lose.

If you gamble online, on a cruise ship or in an unregulated foreign
casino, then you are on your own as far as safety.

[n***@mail.com]

Post by Iceman
if you think that the casino rigs the games to screw players, bet
in such a way that your interests align with the house. If everyone
else in a crap game is betting on pass, you bet don't pass. If most of
the money in roulette is on red or red numbers, bet black.

you dont really have all the time to stand there and count. My main
point is about Pai-Gow, if rigged then the players CANT win. If they
just used dice to determine deal position, instead of a fancy LED
embedded inside the actual table...

The worst is the big vertical "price is rigtht-style" wheel. If anyone
thinks those arent electronically set to land on pre-selected numbers,
lol

[Iceman]

"you dont really have all the time to stand there and count."

You can easily see if more money is bet on pass vs. don't pass in
craps, or on banker vs. player in baccarat. If what you say is true,
then you should be able to beat baccarat or craps simply by betting
with the house and against the bulk of the other players' money.

"My main point is about Pai-Gow, if rigged then the players CANT win."

They can't win anyway, because of the 5% house commission on winning
hands and the fact that the dealer wins ties. I highly doubt that the
casinos are fixing the cards on top of its existing advantages. Have
you actually observed a Pai Gow Poker table for any significant length
of time and seen any indication that it was rigged?

"The worst is the big vertical "price is rigtht-style" wheel. If anyone
thinks those arent electronically set to land on pre-selected numbers,
lol"

No, they just have terrible odds that don't even come close to the fair
odds of those numbers coming up.

[n***@mail.com]

Post by Iceman
You can easily see if more money is bet on pass vs. don't pass in
craps, or on banker vs. player in baccarat. If what you say is true,
then you should be able to beat baccarat or craps simply by betting
with the house and against the bulk of the other players' money.

I am referring to the electronics involved in seemingly random results
in the vertical wheel, the roulette wheel, and of the pai-gow player
selections.

Post by Iceman
"My main point is about Pai-Gow, if rigged then the players CANT win."
They can't win anyway, because of the 5% house commission on winning
hands and the fact that the dealer wins ties. I highly doubt that the
casinos are fixing the cards on top of its existing advantages. Have
you actually observed a Pai Gow Poker table for any significant length
of time and seen any indication that it was rigged?

Playing at a table and observing how and when the card-sort/player
selection works, and their results, is what made me come to these
conclusions. I would highly doubt it was fixed too, if dice was used to
determine player-position. Why is dice used at the (unpopular) domino
pai-gow but not the (very popular) poker pai-gow?

[Iceman]

"Why is dice used at the (unpopular) domino pai-gow but not the (very
popular) poker pai-gow?"

Maybe the predominantly Chinese-American players of domino pai-gow
prefer their game played the traditional way?

If enough players object to the casino using the electronic selector
and the shuffling machine in Pai Gow Poker, I'm sure the casino would
stop. Most people prefer that the casino use those devices since they
make the game faster.

"I am referring to the electronics involved in seemingly random results
in the vertical wheel, the roulette wheel, and of the pai-gow player
selections."

Then you should be able to make money on roulette by figuring out what
outcome the house wants. I am certain that you can't actually do this.

[n***@mail.com]

Post by Iceman
"Why is dice used at the (unpopular) domino pai-gow but not the (very
popular) poker pai-gow?"
Maybe the predominantly Chinese-American players of domino pai-gow
prefer their game played the traditional way?

The question was not why is it used with the domino game, but why NOT
with the pai-gow poker. It certainly isn't slower to shake up some
dice.

Post by Iceman
If enough players object to the casino using the electronic selector
and the shuffling machine in Pai Gow Poker, I'm sure the casino would
stop. Most people prefer that the casino use those devices since they
make the game faster.

The machine doesn't even shuffle, the dealer does and then places the
deck into the machine, where the cards are "processed", and then
released 5 at a time. However, that machine is irrelevant if not
connected to an electronic selector.

Post by Iceman
"I am referring to the electronics involved in seemingly random results
in the vertical wheel, the roulette wheel, and of the pai-gow player
selections."
Then you should be able to make money on roulette by figuring out what
outcome the house wants. I am certain that you can't actually do this.

Most roulette players dont bet the colors or odd-even, the outcome that
the house wants is losing the least money.